What about “Annihilationism”?

Here is a discussion as to why we believe the view of Annihilationism or a variation called Conditional Immortality (that the unbelieving will be eternally destroyed) is a theological move in the right direction, but we will present in what ways we disagree in favor of the view of Ultimate Restoration, which is in our opinion a more scriptural view. (Updated 11/9/2019 with quotes by David Bentley Hart)

The following is our response at Steve Brown’s Key Life discussion forum on the topic of Annihilationism/Conditional Immortality followed by an excerpt by Dr. Richard Beck:
I want to continue to communicate how much I appreciate the step many have taken toward a more humane understanding of God’s final judgment. Conditional Immortality and similarly Annihilationism offer a more merciful depiction of God as represented in the Scriptures and most importantly as represented in God’s final Word of Jesus Christ. The new movie “Hell and Mr. Fudge” (released in 2012) will continue to challenge the assumed doctrine of eternal conscious torment and for that we are grateful. But here are a couple of reasons to start with why I believe that conditional immortality stops short of delivering a fully victorious Gospel or Good News:

First it proves to be no different from the eternal conscious torment view in its inability to offer any objective assurance to anyone. Even if a strong “salvation by grace alone” is preached it still requires a certain level of faith, a quality of “repentance,” and specific works (loving and serving the “least of these”) that prove the authenticity of that faith and repentance. People must simply trust that their faith is in the right things, their repentance is deep enough, that their works are a real outworking of their faith and not self-deceived delusions, and that they score higher on the “sheep” side than the “goats” side on the “eternal criteria meter.” So either way, assurance is always a problem and remains illusive because there are 30,000 denominations out there all defining the nature of faith and repentance and evidential works in different ways. And what about degrees? How MUCH do you need to believe and repent and do? How MANY good works prove you have real or “saving” faith? Again, this is extremely shaky ground that most cannot sustain without caving in to fear and doubt or even walking away altogether. John said “these things are written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” He also says in 1 John that “Perfect love casts out all fear.”

The Gospel must be ONE message of objective news that will never change: God loves and has saved sinners. This does not negate consequences or accountability or a refinement in the ages or “aions” to come. A sobering reality but it does not create a despair of hope in the love of God.

Second, the CI/Annihilationism position fails to consider the nature of sin and what it takes to fully eradicate it. Since God is a relational Being His laws are primarily relational, not legal. Therefore true justice will only be met through reconciliation. For example, to execute an unrepentant murderer only metes out a judgment of “getting even” and simply removes the threat of more evil coming from that person. But the evil itself still lingers in the hearts of those affected by that person’s crime (which we are told is primarily God: “Against you and you only have I sinned…” Psa 51). And we know that getting even does not ever feel “even;” It doesn’t bring back the loved one nor satisfy our sense of justice we know in our hearts to be true.

Simply killing an evil-doer doesn’t kill the evil nor remove it from the universe, because we who live on must bear its scar forever as an unsettled and unreconciled matter in our memory. In an annihilation paradigm, it will forever remain that billions of God’s image-bearers will have never truly come to their senses and understood the nature of their wickedness. Evil, in the form of billions of God’s humanity, will never have been acknowledged, understood, nor repented of. Is not one of the things we desire when we have been dealt injustice is for the perpetrator to understand the magnitude of what he/she has done? Killing the perpetrator is not true justice but simply bringing consequences to bear and removing the danger from society.

Annihilationism claims that these people are “successful rebels to the end” (as C. S. Lewis proposes). Is this possible in God’s own universe where we are told He is Lord – where His love never fails and is relentless and inescapable? This is a serious misrepresentation of Christ’s Lordship. As the early church fathers said, “If He is not Lord of all He is not Lord at all.” In addition, it does not account for the proposed failure of God to fulfill His most fundamental desire and decree: “Let Us make man in Our image and likeness.” For God to destroy most of His image-bearers means that God’s Word in the end returns to Him void and empty and does not fulfill that for which it was sent to accomplish (Isa 55:11).

The only thing that resolves evil is the “undoing of evil.” This was accomplished through the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. This requires and will be followed by true repentance (literally “a renewed mind”), restitution (loving service), and reconciliation on the part of each offender. Until we witness each evil perpetrator repent and be reconciled to God and his fellow man, their evil can never be pronounced “dead” or eradicated. It is leaving God’s creation “unfinished” when He said to the contrary on the sixth day of both creation – it is “very good” and in the event of His RE-creation– “It is finished.”

As George MacDonald so percipiently observed: “Annihilation is no death to evil; Only good where evil was is evil dead. An evil thing must live with its evil until it chooses to be good. That alone is the slaying of evil.”

Theologian Karl Barth understood “annihilation” in the context of resurrection. He wrote:

“God will burn us all right down to love.”

I assume you may be claiming we are saying God will then “force” His salvation on all mankind. But that is not the case. If anyone reading this is a Calvinist you already believe in irresistible grace and would have faith for that. If you are an Arminian you need to come to believe that God’s love and grace through the cross are beautiful and alluring beyond our comprehension and as the Scriptures tell us, will “never fail.” God’s love for this world is even compared to a Romance.

 Here are some additional thoughts by Dr. Richard Beck who wrote of his reasons for abandoning his view of annihilationism:

But the fact that annihilationism is murder isn’t what ultimately changed my mind.

The deeper problem I had with annihilationism is that it didn’t, ultimately, answer the questions I was really struggling with. The same questions that bothered me about the Sunday School hell were also bothering me with annihilationism.

Here’s the deal. Annihilationism is a doctrine about hell. It’s not a doctrine about God. Annihilationism answers a very specific question: Will hell last forever? It answers, no, it won’t. Hell is just the cessation of existence. God won’t torture people forever.

Again, this is an improvement. But this theological patch on the doctrine of hell doesn’t get at the deeper issue about who God is. Is God loving? Is God just?

Think of those Jews looking up at the shower heads in Auschwitz. Maybe they don’t get tortured for eternity in the next life. Maybe, Fudge suggested, they just die, right there or maybe later. Regardless, the last act in the drama of their life is breathing in the gas as they scream and cling to their friends, family and children. Too bad they didn’t accept Jesus in this life! Too bad they didn’t attend that nice, welcoming German bible study down the street!

In short, while annihilationism allowed me to believe that God isn’t a sadistic torturer it didn’t allow me to answer the questions I really needed to answer: Is God just? Is God loving?

And so, I eventually left annihilationism behind. The view just tweaks the doctrine of hell. And that was, for a season, helpful. And I still believe most of what Fudge writes in The Fire that Consumes. His analysis of immortality is awesome and his word study of the word “eternal” is wonderful. But I needed more. I didn’t start this search looking for a better doctrine of hell.

I was looking for God.

In his Q & A on Universalism Beck sums it up in this way:

I once endorsed annihilationism. And among all the options out there it’s certainly not the worst. Annihilationism, to its credit, is trying to wrestle with the problems inherent in the traditional doctrine of hell. However, I rejected annihilationism for three reasons. First, annihilationism is still death-centered. Death continues to separate humans from God making Death the prime mover in human affairs. Second, annihilationism still isn’t dealing with the problem of moral luck. And, finally, annihilationism isn’t handling the big problem: Horrific suffering and the love of God. Universalism, by contrast, addresses all three issues. Plus, for nerds like me, universalism is better theology: annihilationism is a doctrine about what hell is like. Universalism is a doctrine about what God is like.

UPDATE – David Bentley Hart recently published his thoughts on the topic of Annihilation (Oct. 2019) in his new book, That All Shall Be Saved:

“Admittedly, [annihilation] is considerably more palatable than the former [eternal conscious torment]; and, for what it is worth, it also appears to accord somewhat better with the large majority of scriptural metaphors, the dominical metaphors in particular, for final damnation. But such an eventuality would still be an irreducible price exacted, a sacrifice eternally preserved in the economy of God’s Kingdom. The ultimate absence of a certain number of created rational natures would still be a kind of last end inscribed in God’s eternity, a measure of failure or loss forever preserved within the totality of the tale of divine victory. If what is lost is lost finally and absolutely, then whatever remains, however glorious, is the residue of an unresolved and no less ultimate tragedy, and so could constitute only a contingent and relative ‘happy ending.’ Seen in that way, the lost are still the price that God has contracted from everlasting—whether by predestination or mere permission—for the sake of his Kingdom; and so it remains a Kingdom founded upon both an original and a final sacrificial exclusion. In either case—eternal torment, eternal oblivion—creation and redemption are negotiations with evil, death, and suffering, and so never in an absolute sense God’s good working of all things.” (That All Shall Be Saved, pg 86)

“The ultimate annihilation of all the wicked souls that have ever been would still not constitute the total victory promised in the fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians. It would perhaps demonstrate that God reigns ‘over all,’ at least by the end of the story, and in that sense it might suggest that God, for all intents and purposes, is ‘all’ that is. But it would never allow for the reality of God being ‘all in all.’ . . . There would exist eternally the residual reality of souls that never surrendered to him, and within which consequently he never appeared as the sole and consuming end of knowledge and desire, recognized by the intellect and affirmed by the rational will—souls in which he was never the all. (That All Shall Be Saved, pg 186)

“[F]rom this same eternal divine perspective these thwarted and ultimately annihilated rational natures would still constitute that irreducible tragic historical surd, that sacrifice that God was willing to throw away to secure the limited, relative, necessarily contingent goodness of his creative acts. This is not enough. This would be, frankly, an almost farcically drab, depressingly ambiguous anticlimax.” (That All Shall Be Saved, pg 195)

“Freedom consists in the soul’s journey through this interior world of constantly shifting conditions and perspectives, toward the only home that can ultimately liberate the wanderer from the exile of sin and illusion. And God, as the transcendent end that draws every rational will into actuality, never ceases setting every soul free, ever and again, until it finds that home.” (That All Shall Be Saved, pg 195)

The main thesis of this website is to explore how the Body of Christ together is proclaiming and supporting the view that God’s intention is to restore all humanity. We believe restoration and not annihilation is what is written on our hearts as the ONE Body of Christ together. Our denominations do not have it all together but together as a Body we have it all!  We are, as a Body, at the same time, (just not all in the same place, yet!) proclaiming ONE Gospel:

1. Jesus died for the whole world because He loves and wants to restore all people (Arminianism)

2. God is sovereign and His love and grace are irresistible as He woos to Himself all those He died for (Calvinism)

3. God is a missionary God who comes to rescue His creation (The “missional” church)

4. God’s justice is restorative and therefore His intention is to “DO” justice and not “GET” justice (The restorative justice movement)

5. All mankind are made in the image of God and therefore there should be equal social justice for all (The more “liberal” brethren)

6. The recent re-focus on the centrality of the resurrection returning to that of the Early Church’s emphasis (Signs and wonders)

7. The recent expression of a universal restoration in our worship music (Hillsong, and many other popular worship music)

There are about 20 in all: Read all HERE

18 Comments

  1. Chris Date said:

    We had the honor of interviewing, and being endorsed by, Edward Fudge at http://www.rethinkinghell.com. If anybody’s interested, follow that link and click “Podcast” at the top and the links to the two parts of the interview are available there.

    December 3, 2012
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  2. glwadmin said:

    Thank you Chris for providing the link! I look forward to viewing the interview.

    I am very excited about this movie as it will be a catalyst for the continuing discussion over the nature of hell. Love Wins seemed to open the floodgates on this issue to the greater evangelical world. Then came “Hellbound?” and now “Hell and Mr. Fudge.” This is all very good. I am grateful that there are those compelled and courageous enough to challenge the traditional view in the public forum.

    I secretly hoped in Conditional Immortality for many years as I was given “permission” to question the traditional doctrine knowing that the well respected theologian John Stott held this view. However, while it depicted a more merciful God I found the view failing to resolve many other issues relating to God’s sovereignty, justice, holiness and love.

    A big one for me was the fact that the nature of true Biblical justice is restorative rather than punitive. We have unpacked that issue here for anyone who would like to check it out:

    http://www.christianuniversalism.com/2012/03/righteousness-justice/

    But again, anything that gets this issue out in the open for discussion is a tremendous move forward for the Church!

    December 4, 2012
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  3. Cody Dana said:

    I am so grateful that there are people like me who desire to find the truth about God’s nature and his plan for us all instead of just being obligated to believe that what the church says or what your parents say about him and the necessary steps towards salvation. Reading posts like these justify what my heart was truly telling me within and what I believe that all people really want to believe, but are sadly convinced it is not true. My story is so similar to Becks. I started out falling for the traditional hell-fire view of god whom you must obey or else. I was taught to believe that view was right and it caused extreme stress, insecurity, depression, drug addictions, and many other mental health problems. Things were just so confusing to me, I couldn’t understand that I could have more logic than God. I actually considered becoming atheist. Then I took maters into my own hands and I started searching for answers. I discovered annihilation/conditionalism. This was so much easier to digest, and my stress level went way down, but something about God’s character still seemed not quite right. How could it truly be heaven if I knew many of the people I loved would not be there because they chose to be stubborn, or ignorant. It wasn’t until last night that I found all the answers to my questions in this verse: Because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. – 1 Timothy 4:10
    That is when I finally understood. It was the answer to every question about God’s nature and his plan for us all. This verse completely changed my life and I shed true tears of joy, not just mental ones. I finally understood God’s true love and mercy and how awesome he really is. God made us, put us through pain and mental confusion, just so he can see the look on our faces when we all enter his paradise. I no longer identify as Baptist, but as Universalist because of God’s never ending love and sacrifice. All this and I am just an everyday 17 year old boy! I believe that my faith in Christian Universalism has set me up for life.

    December 16, 2013
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    • Ronald said:

      1 Timothy 4:10: From what I have read about this text the interpretation you think is right may in fact be wrong: the right interpretation as I understood it is that all kinds of people will be saved ie., from all nations there will be believers (for which they make a conscious decision, which is affirmed by receiving the belief that Jesus is God and died for our sins, note by me) and the Israelites are hereby favored as God’s people ie., the believers.

      I do not know what hell is like and do not know if anybody goes there or whatever. All I read is that Jesus says that it is a terrible thing and for everybody there is a easy escape to choose so…

      Also it’s about relationship with God through Jesus Christ and if you do not want that you do not get that and you will hate God forever and love your sins I guess or whatever…

      I do not claim to know everything but I do know you can trust God to be fair and good and so on and he will judge right for everyone.

      Furthermore with all the translations of the Bible its not easy to find out exactly what it all means, but you need the Holy Spirit to find out what the Bible says.

      July 18, 2015
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  4. glwadmin said:

    Thank you Cody for your heartfelt testimony of God’s revelation of His love! I agree annihilationism falls short of a satisfying answer to God’s justice. Our souls were made to discern the truth and we know that total final destruction of most of God’s image-bearers does not reflect true Biblical justice.

    I would not say however that “God put us through pain and mental confusion” in order to see our surprised faces in the end. Our mental confusion is our own doing as we each have chosen to take on a fallen mindset full of lies about ourselves and our Maker. Life is about the process of God allowing us to exhaust all the alternatives to Him in order to reveal His true heart to us. We apparently needed time and history to expose the lies we have been under since The Fall. But once the lies are exposed within our human experience they will be dead forever.

    Please continue to fill your heart and mind with the truth of how valuable you are to your Creator and how your Papa Father has made you one with Him in order to share the same quality of fellowship with you that he shares with His Son and His Spirit!

    I recommend steeping yourself in this Gospel.

    Grace and peace,
    Phillip

    December 17, 2013
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  5. Finding this excellent website is like a breath of fresh air. My journey from the traditional doctrine of eternal conscious torture (hell)to the embrace of universal salvation for all humanity has proven to be long and professionally hazardous. I’ve been an ordained minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ for more than sixty years (still active); serving a well-known evangelical denomination at virtually every level of leadership: pastor, executive officer of churches, Bible college president, and many other positions. But, through it all, I could never reconcile the horrible concept of a fiery God-created hell with the gentle Jesus I had come to know experientially. Nor could I believe that the divine Creator would finally end up losing most of the humanity he initially intended to ‘make in his own image.’ Therefore, the day came when I finally shared my rejection of ECT with my chosen denomination officials who, in turn, refused to renew my ministerial credentials. I was not surprised at their reaction given the fact that traditional hell is so deeply embedded in the denomination’s Statements of Faith document. (I hasten to say that I hold no animosity in my heart against the denomination or any of its officials. I consider them to be honorable servants of Christ who are bound by their own adopted rules and regulations.)

    As for me, I continue to minister to the multitudes, but, now, with a glorious grace message of the inclusion of all, not the exclusion of most. Since accepting the truth of universal restoration, I have written two books: Judas Iscariot Revisited and Restored (2008), and, Dropping Hell and Embracing Grace (2012. Both available from Amazon.com.

    February 6, 2015
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    • glwadmin said:

      Thanks for sharing your story here Ivan. It means a lot to hear from seasoned believers who have walked through this journey long enough to really know what they are talking about. Btw, I believe I saw your comments recently over at Roger Olson’s blog. I discovered the article late but have been in a bit of discussion over there. I really appreciate Dr. Olson for his openness to even discuss the issue, and it isn’t the first time. I believe we are going to see more and more of this kind of “open table discussion.”

      And thanks for letting us know about your books. We will check them out.

      Phillip

      February 6, 2015
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      • Phillip: Dr. Roger Olson is a personal friend of mine. His late father was once my pastor a long time ago.

        February 7, 2015
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        • glwadmin said:

          That is very interesting to hear. I found Dr. Olson late in my spiritual journey as Arminian authors were off limits for Calvinists. Now that I understand that they hold a beautiful and key part of the gospel I have so enjoyed reading and listening to their faith in God’s love for all. I particularly respect Roger Olson for his scholarship and then also for his humility to admit that at times “we are all heretics“(!)

          February 7, 2015
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  6. I believe that your arguments against Annihilationism are misaligned. For example, if we look at Beck’s three reasons above (in this article), he lists 1. death, 2. moral luck, and 3. suffering vs. love.

    1. As for the concept of death, we are told that all living things die, and all living things die alike, both men and beast. Although it is a sad fact that the image of death has been corrupted in the minds of many, being returned to the dust (a state of non-being) is not an act of cruelty. Although I do question if Universalism demands that animals also be given resurrection and eternal life. If not, then its emotional plea in this regard seems inconsistent.

    2. As for moral luck, such a theme has nothing at all to do with Annihilation. As your own article admits, Annihilation is a doctrine about [the sentence of] death, not the nature or process of judgment. Rather than confuse the two, when the bible speaks of the effects of an eternal judgment of death, be willing to trust what it says to that measure. Other places speak to the nature of our our Judge and his judgment: there is no space in this response for that topic here, but please do not confuse the two questions.

    3. Beck’s point of “suffering vs. love” makes less sense to me: it seems that he does not believe that harm past can be healed. As the Universalist position must essentially be Calvinist in character, in that by necessity free will must be destroyed (at least for some) to make it happen. IF that can be believed (by the Universalist) then why is it hard to believe that God really can erase the harm of past suffering from the lives of those that ultimately receive life? We have experienced things that seemed very traumatic to us, given our perspective at the time, but we heal from these. Some things seems very traumatic to me when I was a young child, but (I assume) I no longer remember these things, or if I do, with a healed adult perspective.

    The part of Universalism that seems quite contradictory is that it essentially does destroy the unrepentant. Not with a clean death and a return to the dust, but where the will (and everything that defines that person) screams out ‘NO” they must essentially be lobotomized so that “they” (are they themselves any more?) can now “live.” That does not match the character of God, the God that wants people who willingly give themselves in all, rejecting the half-committed and lukewarm. Were not the soliders of Gideon “too many?” Which ones did God leave behind? The concept of love must be destroyed and replaced with mind control.

    Of the biblical message, God is willing that all men be saved. The way to that salvation is through Jesus, that they must learn love. God wants all men to learn love for him and for each other. You can’t force love. Love, by definition, must be freely given. Otherwise it isn’t love. God wants us to love him of our own free will (our whole being) and nothing less will work.

    No matter how powerful (or sovereign) God is he cannot MAKE someone love him of their own FREE WILL AGAINST THEIR WILL. He did not create robots (though he could have) but he created man in his own image: we actually do have a choice in who we will become. Reconciliation might be universal in the sense that God will reach out to all, but the fact is that not all will be willing to accept that reconciliation. Common sense tells us this, the bible explicitly tells us this.

    January 22, 2016
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    • glwadmin said:

      Thanks for your comment Patrick, I am publishing it for those interested in wrestling with your points. Like I said, it offers a much more reasonable and compassionate view of God as it rejects the Eternal Torturer God. But this website offers a bigger picture of our Father God even still. People will have to check out our articles and decide for themselves.

      Again, “Annihilation is no death to evil. Only good where evil was is evil dead…that alone is the slaying of evil.”

      I will briefly answer by saying there is nothing controlling about a God who happens to know that all alternatives to Him will eventually be exhausted and “all the ends of the earth will remember and return to the Lord.” Salvation is not a matter of “if” but “when” you come. Our Father has allowed His children the freedom to live in the unfreedom of the illusions they’ve created until they remember who they are and who He is: Love incarnate. You cannot be lost unless you belong. Everyone belongs forever and everyone will eventually “remember and return” … willingly and with great joy.

      January 26, 2016
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      • Douglas Daniels said:

        -“Annihilation itself is no death to evil. Only good where evil was, is evil dead. An evil thing must live with its evil until it chooses to be good. That alone is the slaying of evil.” – G. McDonald

        -”I believe that the very fire of hell is the fire of love, but it is a love that will burn the evil out of you” – G. McDonald

        “…Is there a single evil soul whom God cannot bring through the pains of self-enlightenment to a place of being in “sound mind”, like the poor wretch the Lord found with his “legion” of demons?

        Let us espouse the truth. God is not a destroyer. In the book of Revelation a creature was found whose name was Apollyon, meaning “Destroyer”. He is the complete opposite of the Lord who is the Creator. God cannot destroy anything except that which is evil in man, not man himself, but the resident evil within. And so we see that the Church is quite distinct from the rest of the world, but nevertheless salvation is God’s gift to all. Once again let us say that all mankind has already been saved according to Paul’s language. This salvation is signed, sealed, and delivered in the Savior’s blood. However, man’s acceptance of God’s gift takes time. We are told that by the work of the cross. “all things are under His feet, but at the same time, we do not yet see all things under His feet. There is therefore a judicial completion of all God’s works toward man. But the outpouring of this requires much time, and the manner in which God accomplishes it is effected in stages….”

        The final quote (2 paragraphs) was excerpted from “Hidden Treasures – A Trilogy”, by Arthur and Rosaland Eedle. It is a marvelous exposition on the reality of Ultimate Reconciliation. I would highly recommend reading it starting on pg. 175 and ending on pg. 291. Here is the link:
        https://books.google.com/books?id=TxHRCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=Annihilation+is+no+death+to+evil.+Only+good+where+evil+was+is+evil+dead%E2%80%A6that+alone+is+the+slaying+of+evil&source=bl&ots=JTkD5IV6CS&sig=OpmszNhmIYhxB9LPqlRRoNRrWTE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTrISWvMnKAhXovYMKHUvPAm4Q6AEINTAG#v=onepage&q=Annihilation%20is%20no%20death%20to%20evil.%20Only%20good%20where%20evil%20was%20is%20evil%20dead%E2%80%A6that%20alone%20is%20the%20slaying%20of%20evil&f=false

        January 27, 2016
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        • Andrew Patrick said:

          Here’s the reason why I have trouble taking your statements at face value:

          1. Annihilation does (by definition) destroy evil. That quote you’re using to the contrary isn’t scripture, is it? The saints shall tread on the ashes of the wicked, it says. Malachi 4 is scripture. That’s the method God has described. McDonald may disagree, but McDonald didn’t create the heavens and the earth either.

          2. God is both creator and destroyer. Again, your quote to the contrary is not scripture but from a man-made writing (philosophy). Logically, the God that can create can also destroy. By scripture we are filled with instances telling us that God can and does destroy, far too many for me to mention them all here. But just for example, Genesis 6:13 “I will destroy them from off the earth” and Matthew 10:28 “destroy both body and soul in hell.”

          So the problem for me is that you’re asking us to believe a philosophy that stands in disagreement with scripture. When you seek to persuade me, you call on works of McDonald and Eedle… rather than Peter and Paul, Jesus, or Moses and the prophets.

          January 29, 2016
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          • glwadmin said:

            “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” John 10:10

            We could cherry-pick scriptures ad infinitum so we must attempt to see the bigger picture, just as Jesus directed the Jews. They missed the forest in the trees. Despite their 1000s of years of “Bible study” Jesus declared them all wrong: “No one knows the Father except the Son.”

            January 30, 2016
  7. WHAT FREE WILL?
    It is not possible for fallen humanity to be saved by the exercise of so-called “free will.” The Edenic fall corrupted EVERYTHING: mind, body and soul. A mind that cannot think straight cannot be considered free. Our natural and fallen mind is unreliable and prone to wrong choices. By the way, did you know that Adolph Hitler was a baptized Roman Catholic who was all screwed up in his thinking? Like Paul who killed people who didn’t believe like he did, Hitler actually thought he was “doing the will of God.” This proves that even professing believers can ignorantly do terrible things and, then, blame it on God.
    In this life sometimes God overrules our choices in preference to his own. In the world to come, all humanity will be perfectly synchronized with God. Then (and only then) it will truly be said that we possess free will. Meanwhile, inasmuch as the will of humanity is often confused, God has sent us his Son who always made the right choices for himself and for us, and who said upon arrival, “Here I am–it is written about me in the scroll–‘I have come to do your will, O God’” (Heb 10:7). Jesus recognized that humanity’s capacity to rationalize spiritual matters was all fouled up, thus, he would say, “Father, forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY’RE DOING.” Therefore let us always seek to emulate our dear Savior the best we can, though we often fall short because of our screwed up and wavering will.
    (An excerpt from a new book, Grace Nuggets Uncovered, by Ivan A. Rogers. Available from Amazon.com (paperback or Kindle).

    January 27, 2016
    Reply
  8. Sam Jones said:

    What about the rich man and Lazarus? Jesus said the rich man was in hell, being tormented. How long was he going to be there? This doesn’t match with the thought that a person just ceases to exist after death, but that there is a perpetual place of torment for the unbeliever.

    March 2, 2016
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    • Response for Sam…

      “Lazarus and the rich man” is a parable within a fictitious setting. One of the earliest parables in the bible tells of trees that talk among each other to elect a king, until finally the bramble accepts the role and threatens to consume the cedars with fire (see Judges 9).

      To understand Christ’s parable of the rich man in Luke 16, you need to consider how his audience would interpret the symbols, specifically:

      * there is a beggar outside of the city, among the dogs
      * there is a rich man, clothed in purple and fine linen, who calls Abraham father, who has “Moses and the prophets”, and who just happens to have five brothers

      Like many places in the bible, the symbols are there within scripture already. Lazarus is a gentile, one of the “dogs” (see Matthew 7:6, Matthew 15:26, Mark 7:27) but the rich man is Jewish. After all, he has “Moses and the prophets” and calls Abraham “Father” (see Mark 3:9, Luke 3:8, John 8:39, Acts 7:2).

      We are given a name for the gentile beggar, a name “Lazarus” … so what is the name of the Jewish rich man? The one clothed in purple and fine linen? Might his audience (learned Pharisees) recognize the allusion to Genesis 49:8-11, “the sceptre shall not depart from Judah… ” and “… he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes?” Or might they be able to tell exactly which “sons of Abraham” were well known for having five brothers?

      Hint: If a man has five brothers, then there are six brethren. For example, Leah had six sons, including Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun…

      Genesis 35:23 KJV
      (23) The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob’s firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun:

      Considering that Jesus was targeting the pharisees with this parable, and considering the symbolic elements he chose, what is the name of the rich man?

      Once you know the identification of the characters (Gentile, Jewish) do you think it bears mentioning that the gentile beggar in this story finds himself within a metaphor of “Jewish reward” while the most Jewish definition of Jews finds himself in the storybook description of a *gentile* hell?

      The parable isn’t about metaphysics, it isn’t about attempting to contradict the law and the prophets (which Jesus came to fulfill, not destroy) that all tell us that the dead are dead without love, hatred, envy, or knowledge… it’s about the reversal of fortunes. A theme that Jesus mentioned more than a few times in other contexts as well.

      Matthew 19:30 “But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.”

      Matthew 22:8 “Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.”

      Luke 20:16 “He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.”

      I could give another dozen examples from the gospels alone if pressed. But even if attempting to take the parable of Lazarus as a “historical report” then you have more problems still: there is no judgment before punishment, salvation is the result of having received bad fortune in life, condemnation is received for having received “good things” … not to mention the numerous contradictions that must be sustained to have arrived at that point in the first place.

      The parable of Lazarus also contained a prophecy. Did it hold true?

      Luke 16:30-31 KJV
      (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
      (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      Jesus raised his friend Lazarus first, and then he himself came back from the dead. But if Judah would not hear Moses and the prophets, would it matter if one rose from the dead? Did they repent, or did they as a nation reject Christ even until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD?

      Acts 13:46 KJV
      (46) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

      So to answer your question, of course the setting of the parable doesn’t match reality. Fictional elements are supposed to be recognized as fictional. Aesop’s fables have talking animals. when I was a child and saw the animated Robin Hood I wasn’t tricked into thinking that foxes really walked on two legs and shot arrows from bows. It’s a common mechanism for a story.

      The trees (of Judges 9) don’t really talk to each other and elect kings, and the “sheep and the goats” of Matthew 25 aren’t actually sheep and goats. The seed of the parable of the sower (Matthew 13) aren’t really seeds, and the wheat and the tares (same chapter) aren’t grain seeds either. It would be missing the point to mistake these passages for lectures in agriculture and thus miss the entire meaning of the parables…

      Mark 4:13 KJV
      (13) And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

      March 2, 2016
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    • glwadmin said:

      For another take on the Rich Man and Lazarus here is a summary by Alice Spicer of the history and setting of the parable.

      March 9, 2016
      Reply

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