I did not watch the hour-long video, but can anyone give logical reasons why Annihilation would support Universal Restoration? It’s pretty obvious to me why the popular “immortal soul” might support UR, but Annihilation is the opposite: an irreversible destruction of the wicked is by definition just that, irreversible destruction.
Can you explain please? I don’t understand, I have always understood “we are immortal and will never permanently die” to be essential to both “Eternal Conscious Torment” and “Unconditional Redemption for Everyone”.
If there’s something obvious that it seems I’m missing I don’t mind someone spelling it out simply (no offense would be taken.) But my experience with being asked to watch long videos is that the logic often gets hidden in the speech/personality of the speaker. If there’s essence to it are you able to distill a couple key points of interest here?
Yes of course it is in the word of God or else I wouldn’t believe it :) The argument for Universal Reconciliation is not only a biblical one, but also a historical and theological one. It takes into account the history of the bible as we know it today and the historical teachings of the church since Jesus’s resurrection. I must tell you that the bibles that are translated from the Latin vulgate are corrupt and there have been things added and subtracted as well as doctrines of man inserted into it’s interpretation which has been passed down through the years. Currently in Christendom today we see core doctrines such as the trinity doctrine, the eternal conscious torment of the damned doctrine, and the grace of God through faith = salvation doctrine. I think these three make up the sort of non negotiable pillars of faith, I would say, hence why universal reconciliationists are seen as heretics. In actuality, the doctrine of eternal hell was appropriated from pagan mythology and had never been taught in Christianity by the early Christians, nor was it ever a doctrine in Judaism for that matter. In fact, from the old testament it is clear that death was nothing more than one going into the grave. Death was nothingness and sheol was the end. “For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5; “”When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up.” Job 7:9.
So the widely held belief was that there was no resurrection of the dead and there was no life after death, unlike the pagans who had beliefs in an underworld that dated back to ancient Babylon. This is why what Jesus was saying was so revolutionary! He was promising them everlasting life and that they would rise again after death which was unheard of. You see, in order for one to believe in Hell, then one must believe that souls are immortal, and there is absolutely no scripture to support this belief. This is a teaching of man. Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
“I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (RUACH); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” it wasn’t until Rome usurped control over Christianity forming the roman catholic church which basically paganized Christianity, that the doctrine of hell was mainstay. In fact they made it illegal to preach anything other than eternal hellfire damnation for all non believers, AKA propaganda and fear tactics.
Today, we have two main theological sects, Arminian and Calvinist doctrines, and these two theologies disagree on whether Jesus died for the sins of the world or rather just the elect. Which beliefs do you currently hold? If you hold to an Arminian view then you agree with Universal Reconcillationists that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and every single sin was laid on him. There is scripture to support this such as: “And we — we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son — Saviour of the world”- 1 john 4:14; “and many more did believe because of his word, and said to the woman — ‘No more because of thy speaking do we believe; for we ourselves have heard and known that this is truly the Saviour of the world — the Christ.’ – john 4:41-42; “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”- 1 John 2:2; “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.” 1 Timothy 2:5-6
But, if you are a Calvinist then you believe that Jesus died to save only the elect whom he predestined to be saved. There are scriptures that support this as well such as: “according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,”- Ephesians 1:4; “because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify. ” Romans 8:29-30; “And we — we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth” 2 Thessalonians 2:13;
Universal Reconcilliationists accept ALL of these scriptures. If you are an Arminian or a Calvinist then you must deny scripture. But if you put Arminianism and Calvinism together then you get the whole picture. According to scripture Jesus came to die for the sins of the whole world but he also has an elect people whom he uses to do his will during the ages. In the old testament his people were the Israelites. In the new testament, according to scripture, anyone who is in Christ has now become heirs according to the promise given to Abraham.
Now if you are an Arminian then you believe that Jesus came to save everyone, however Jesus will be unsuccessful in saving everyone because humans have been given free will that is superior to God’s will, and can reject God’s free gift of salvation, which will ultimately land them in the lake of fire for eternity. Universal Reconcilliationist do not share this view because it contradicts scriptures such as: ” for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yes, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it. Listen to me, you stout-hearted, who are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness, it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not wait; and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.” Isaiah 46:9-13; “and he said, “Yahweh, the God of our fathers, aren’t you God in heaven? Aren’t you ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in your hand, so that no one is able to withstand you.” 2 chronicles 20:6; “A man’s heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.” Proverbs 16:9; “for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.” 1 timothy 2:3-4; “And our God is in the heavens, All that He hath pleased He hath done.” Psalm 115:3; “that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow — of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth — and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” philippians 2:10- allusion to prophecy in Isaiah 45:21- “A God righteous and saving, there is none save Me.Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength”; “for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men — especially of those believing.” 1 timothy 4:10
Now if you are Calvinist then you believe man does not have free will and that God’s will ultimately prevails over man’s. Universal Reconciliationists agree because there are scriptures to support this view. God is sovereign, He wills that all be saved, and he will do what he wills.
The true victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of reconciliation to God. Before, we were unable to have a relationship with our Father in Heaven because we were sinful and dead in our sins, but Jesus made a way so that we can have communion with our Father and be free from the curse of sin and death. ”
The Order of Resurrection: But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
Jesus died for everyone, every sin of everyone was put on Him, and is currently reconciling the nations back to God. Those who do not know God cannot know God because God has not revealed himself to them yet, and they have been blinded from the truth. Those who do know God, know Him because He called them during their life to do good works and to spread the Gospel. God is in complete control and He has planned all of this since the beginning. God is not warring against Satan for souls! He has already bought and paid for 100% of them and He will leave the 99 to salvage the 1 lost sheep. God is not in a battle against evil! He is sovereign. No one can come to God unless God calls them! “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.”- john 6:44 Why would God create humanity and die for all humanity only to call some to live and refuse to call others and make them go to hell? “What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin, according as it hath been written — ‘There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.” Romans 3:9
We are all sinful and dead in our trespasses, no one is deserving of God’s mercy. However, God had mercy on us and made a way through Jesus Christ. He did not choose people to throw in hell and others to save, no that is blasphemy. He chose to save everyone because we are all the same. We are all in need of a savior. That is Jesus Christ.
I appreciate your detailed explanation. It was more than I was expecting, but I think it helps me understand where this was coming from.
From what you said above, I would consider your position to be essentially Calvinist, as you have followed its premise to its logical conclusion. If God is willing that all come to a knowledge of the truth, and God gets whatever he wants, then ergo all men will be saved. You’ve expanded the Calvinist idea of the “predestined elect” to be inclusive of every individual.
You think you would consider me as Arminian. I don’t consider myself in this way, but Calvinism seems to classify non-Calvinists as Arminian, so let’s just go with that for now. I believe that God is willing for all men to be saved, but I also believe that not all men are willing to accept that salvation…. God wants us to truly love him of our own free will, but because of the nature of free will, God cannot always get what he wants (even though he wants it for us.)
I would disagree when you say that resurrection was unknown in the old Testament. Job (one of the authors you quoted in support of unknown resurrection) himself prophesied of the resurrection of the dead:
(Job 19:25-27) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Christ also seemed to think that the law and the prophets were quite sufficient testimony of the resurrection of the dead when he chided the Sadducees. “And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”
I do not presume that man has an “immortal soul” or that he cannot die. The resurrection of the dead is a necessary doctrine, a uniquely Judaic and Christian doctrine. I appreciate that you took the space to emphasize this but you don’t have to convince me on that point.
So I already know that Calvinism ultimately leads to UR. What I don’t understand from your explanation is how “Armininianism” leads to UR. The free will to accept or reject our creator means that some will reject God.
What I also don’t understand (from this post topic) is how Annihilationism ultimately leads to UR. If God says he will utterly destroy the wicked in the final day (Ezekiel 28:18 [devil], Malachi 4 [wicked men]), if God will blot out their name from the book that he has written (Exodus 32:32), I don’t see how those can mesh (or lead to the other).
I understand that there is a universal call to salvation, and that perhaps some might be called at different times, but the theme of scripture has always been that there is a choice: life vs knowledge of good and evil, life vs death, repentance vs stubbornness.
At a future time every knee will bow, but that doesn’t mean that ever person who ever lived will still exist to have that knee to bow (it also says in Rev 1:7 that when Christ returns, “every eye shall see him” … so we need to be careful when interpreting absolute sounding statements.
So I guess what I am still asking (and thank you for your explanation so far) is that as a non-Calvinist Annihilationist, how does that logically lead to UR?
The resurrection (at least particularly how modern Christianity has excluded it from their teaching) is a hot spot for me, so I had some more thoughts on whether the concept of resurrection would have been unknown before Jesus:
Dan 12:2-3 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Joh 11:21-24 KJV
(21) Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
(22) But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
(23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Heb 11:35 KJV
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
I’m not sure why it would be unknown. Martha was a pretty normal person and it was common knowledge to her. Paul speaks as if saints of old preserved in hope of a better resurrection.
But when Daniel 12 speaks of the resurrection, it does not sound very UR compatible. “Everlasting contempt” implies a negative judgment of a permanent state. I know that the Eternal Conscious Torment crowd claims that claim that “everlasting contempt” means immortality (an unsupported assertion) but I don’t see how it implies anything but permanence. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting contempt. The contempt cannot be life or the comparison becomes meaningless.
If I am able to ask, does that understanding of UR work without Calvinist assumptions? As I understand Calvinism requires a very specialized redefinition of the word “predestined” and uses that in a few select verses. Its base assumption seems to be to confuse “willed” with “will happen.” So when God wills that we repent, it assumes that God forces it to happen: which is a self-contradiction, because repentance is not genuine repentance unless it is of our own will, and not another.
Eze 3:18-21 KJV
(18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
(20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
I may be opening up too much at once, wouldn’t the call to repentance in Ezekiel (above) be somewhat meaningless within an UR framework? UR seems to have a threat of death, but no actual real death. Every death is always bounced back from, there is no everlasting contempt, and the phrase “never shalt thou be any more” (Ezekiel 28:19) seems to have no application.
Mat 13:29-30 KJV
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
2Pe 2:17 KJV
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Rev 21:8 KJV
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Do these passages have practical meaning within UR?
I do want to know why Annihilation was said to lead to Universal Reconciliation, but I am also concerned with why Calvinism would be considered a given within the biblical context.
Andrew, I encourage you to watch the video. Peter Hiett is no lightweight. He is a profound thinker. Within the video are 2 of his videos he produced so you could skip them which would shorten the lecture by half. But his Downside-Up videos are tremendously enlightening as well. You may even hear some thoughts you have never pondered before : )
Thanks for the clarification Douglas regarding “immortal soul” doctrine.
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I did not watch the hour-long video, but can anyone give logical reasons why Annihilation would support Universal Restoration? It’s pretty obvious to me why the popular “immortal soul” might support UR, but Annihilation is the opposite: an irreversible destruction of the wicked is by definition just that, irreversible destruction.
Can you explain please? I don’t understand, I have always understood “we are immortal and will never permanently die” to be essential to both “Eternal Conscious Torment” and “Unconditional Redemption for Everyone”.
If there’s something obvious that it seems I’m missing I don’t mind someone spelling it out simply (no offense would be taken.) But my experience with being asked to watch long videos is that the logic often gets hidden in the speech/personality of the speaker. If there’s essence to it are you able to distill a couple key points of interest here?
Where you find universalism in the bible?
Yes of course it is in the word of God or else I wouldn’t believe it :) The argument for Universal Reconciliation is not only a biblical one, but also a historical and theological one. It takes into account the history of the bible as we know it today and the historical teachings of the church since Jesus’s resurrection. I must tell you that the bibles that are translated from the Latin vulgate are corrupt and there have been things added and subtracted as well as doctrines of man inserted into it’s interpretation which has been passed down through the years. Currently in Christendom today we see core doctrines such as the trinity doctrine, the eternal conscious torment of the damned doctrine, and the grace of God through faith = salvation doctrine. I think these three make up the sort of non negotiable pillars of faith, I would say, hence why universal reconciliationists are seen as heretics. In actuality, the doctrine of eternal hell was appropriated from pagan mythology and had never been taught in Christianity by the early Christians, nor was it ever a doctrine in Judaism for that matter. In fact, from the old testament it is clear that death was nothing more than one going into the grave. Death was nothingness and sheol was the end. “For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5; “”When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up.” Job 7:9.
So the widely held belief was that there was no resurrection of the dead and there was no life after death, unlike the pagans who had beliefs in an underworld that dated back to ancient Babylon. This is why what Jesus was saying was so revolutionary! He was promising them everlasting life and that they would rise again after death which was unheard of. You see, in order for one to believe in Hell, then one must believe that souls are immortal, and there is absolutely no scripture to support this belief. This is a teaching of man. Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
“I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (RUACH); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” it wasn’t until Rome usurped control over Christianity forming the roman catholic church which basically paganized Christianity, that the doctrine of hell was mainstay. In fact they made it illegal to preach anything other than eternal hellfire damnation for all non believers, AKA propaganda and fear tactics.
Today, we have two main theological sects, Arminian and Calvinist doctrines, and these two theologies disagree on whether Jesus died for the sins of the world or rather just the elect. Which beliefs do you currently hold? If you hold to an Arminian view then you agree with Universal Reconcillationists that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and every single sin was laid on him. There is scripture to support this such as: “And we — we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son — Saviour of the world”- 1 john 4:14; “and many more did believe because of his word, and said to the woman — ‘No more because of thy speaking do we believe; for we ourselves have heard and known that this is truly the Saviour of the world — the Christ.’ – john 4:41-42; “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”- 1 John 2:2; “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.” 1 Timothy 2:5-6
But, if you are a Calvinist then you believe that Jesus died to save only the elect whom he predestined to be saved. There are scriptures that support this as well such as: “according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,”- Ephesians 1:4; “because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify. ” Romans 8:29-30; “And we — we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth” 2 Thessalonians 2:13;
Universal Reconcilliationists accept ALL of these scriptures. If you are an Arminian or a Calvinist then you must deny scripture. But if you put Arminianism and Calvinism together then you get the whole picture. According to scripture Jesus came to die for the sins of the whole world but he also has an elect people whom he uses to do his will during the ages. In the old testament his people were the Israelites. In the new testament, according to scripture, anyone who is in Christ has now become heirs according to the promise given to Abraham.
Now if you are an Arminian then you believe that Jesus came to save everyone, however Jesus will be unsuccessful in saving everyone because humans have been given free will that is superior to God’s will, and can reject God’s free gift of salvation, which will ultimately land them in the lake of fire for eternity. Universal Reconcilliationist do not share this view because it contradicts scriptures such as: ” for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yes, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it. Listen to me, you stout-hearted, who are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness, it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not wait; and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.” Isaiah 46:9-13; “and he said, “Yahweh, the God of our fathers, aren’t you God in heaven? Aren’t you ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in your hand, so that no one is able to withstand you.” 2 chronicles 20:6; “A man’s heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.” Proverbs 16:9; “for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.” 1 timothy 2:3-4; “And our God is in the heavens, All that He hath pleased He hath done.” Psalm 115:3; “that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow — of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth — and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” philippians 2:10- allusion to prophecy in Isaiah 45:21- “A God righteous and saving, there is none save Me.Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I [am] God, and there is none else.By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.Only in Jehovah, said hath one, Have I righteousness and strength”; “for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men — especially of those believing.” 1 timothy 4:10
Now if you are Calvinist then you believe man does not have free will and that God’s will ultimately prevails over man’s. Universal Reconciliationists agree because there are scriptures to support this view. God is sovereign, He wills that all be saved, and he will do what he wills.
The true victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of reconciliation to God. Before, we were unable to have a relationship with our Father in Heaven because we were sinful and dead in our sins, but Jesus made a way so that we can have communion with our Father and be free from the curse of sin and death. ”
The Order of Resurrection: But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
Jesus died for everyone, every sin of everyone was put on Him, and is currently reconciling the nations back to God. Those who do not know God cannot know God because God has not revealed himself to them yet, and they have been blinded from the truth. Those who do know God, know Him because He called them during their life to do good works and to spread the Gospel. God is in complete control and He has planned all of this since the beginning. God is not warring against Satan for souls! He has already bought and paid for 100% of them and He will leave the 99 to salvage the 1 lost sheep. God is not in a battle against evil! He is sovereign. No one can come to God unless God calls them! “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.”- john 6:44 Why would God create humanity and die for all humanity only to call some to live and refuse to call others and make them go to hell? “What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin, according as it hath been written — ‘There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.” Romans 3:9
We are all sinful and dead in our trespasses, no one is deserving of God’s mercy. However, God had mercy on us and made a way through Jesus Christ. He did not choose people to throw in hell and others to save, no that is blasphemy. He chose to save everyone because we are all the same. We are all in need of a savior. That is Jesus Christ.
I appreciate your detailed explanation. It was more than I was expecting, but I think it helps me understand where this was coming from.
From what you said above, I would consider your position to be essentially Calvinist, as you have followed its premise to its logical conclusion. If God is willing that all come to a knowledge of the truth, and God gets whatever he wants, then ergo all men will be saved. You’ve expanded the Calvinist idea of the “predestined elect” to be inclusive of every individual.
You think you would consider me as Arminian. I don’t consider myself in this way, but Calvinism seems to classify non-Calvinists as Arminian, so let’s just go with that for now. I believe that God is willing for all men to be saved, but I also believe that not all men are willing to accept that salvation…. God wants us to truly love him of our own free will, but because of the nature of free will, God cannot always get what he wants (even though he wants it for us.)
I would disagree when you say that resurrection was unknown in the old Testament. Job (one of the authors you quoted in support of unknown resurrection) himself prophesied of the resurrection of the dead:
(Job 19:25-27) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Christ also seemed to think that the law and the prophets were quite sufficient testimony of the resurrection of the dead when he chided the Sadducees. “And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”
I do not presume that man has an “immortal soul” or that he cannot die. The resurrection of the dead is a necessary doctrine, a uniquely Judaic and Christian doctrine. I appreciate that you took the space to emphasize this but you don’t have to convince me on that point.
So I already know that Calvinism ultimately leads to UR. What I don’t understand from your explanation is how “Armininianism” leads to UR. The free will to accept or reject our creator means that some will reject God.
What I also don’t understand (from this post topic) is how Annihilationism ultimately leads to UR. If God says he will utterly destroy the wicked in the final day (Ezekiel 28:18 [devil], Malachi 4 [wicked men]), if God will blot out their name from the book that he has written (Exodus 32:32), I don’t see how those can mesh (or lead to the other).
I understand that there is a universal call to salvation, and that perhaps some might be called at different times, but the theme of scripture has always been that there is a choice: life vs knowledge of good and evil, life vs death, repentance vs stubbornness.
At a future time every knee will bow, but that doesn’t mean that ever person who ever lived will still exist to have that knee to bow (it also says in Rev 1:7 that when Christ returns, “every eye shall see him” … so we need to be careful when interpreting absolute sounding statements.
So I guess what I am still asking (and thank you for your explanation so far) is that as a non-Calvinist Annihilationist, how does that logically lead to UR?
The resurrection (at least particularly how modern Christianity has excluded it from their teaching) is a hot spot for me, so I had some more thoughts on whether the concept of resurrection would have been unknown before Jesus:
Dan 12:2-3 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Joh 11:21-24 KJV
(21) Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
(22) But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
(23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
(24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Heb 11:35 KJV
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
I’m not sure why it would be unknown. Martha was a pretty normal person and it was common knowledge to her. Paul speaks as if saints of old preserved in hope of a better resurrection.
But when Daniel 12 speaks of the resurrection, it does not sound very UR compatible. “Everlasting contempt” implies a negative judgment of a permanent state. I know that the Eternal Conscious Torment crowd claims that claim that “everlasting contempt” means immortality (an unsupported assertion) but I don’t see how it implies anything but permanence. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting contempt. The contempt cannot be life or the comparison becomes meaningless.
If I am able to ask, does that understanding of UR work without Calvinist assumptions? As I understand Calvinism requires a very specialized redefinition of the word “predestined” and uses that in a few select verses. Its base assumption seems to be to confuse “willed” with “will happen.” So when God wills that we repent, it assumes that God forces it to happen: which is a self-contradiction, because repentance is not genuine repentance unless it is of our own will, and not another.
Eze 3:18-21 KJV
(18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
(20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
I may be opening up too much at once, wouldn’t the call to repentance in Ezekiel (above) be somewhat meaningless within an UR framework? UR seems to have a threat of death, but no actual real death. Every death is always bounced back from, there is no everlasting contempt, and the phrase “never shalt thou be any more” (Ezekiel 28:19) seems to have no application.
Mat 13:29-30 KJV
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
2Pe 2:17 KJV
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Rev 21:8 KJV
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Do these passages have practical meaning within UR?
I do want to know why Annihilation was said to lead to Universal Reconciliation, but I am also concerned with why Calvinism would be considered a given within the biblical context.
Actually, UR does not hold to popular “immortal soul” doctrine.
Andrew, I encourage you to watch the video. Peter Hiett is no lightweight. He is a profound thinker. Within the video are 2 of his videos he produced so you could skip them which would shorten the lecture by half. But his Downside-Up videos are tremendously enlightening as well. You may even hear some thoughts you have never pondered before : )
Thanks for the clarification Douglas regarding “immortal soul” doctrine.